I love all the little discussion about Edâs motivations in 4×14 and
whether he truly wanted to stop Oswald from calling him âRiddlerâ.
So
I thought Iâd bring out some contrasting visuals. Rewatching Kristenâs
scene, I realized it has some striking similarities and contrasts to
4×14.
2×06: âPlease donât call me that!â
4×14: âNo, please. Please donât. PLEASE!â
interesting⊠yes, Ed did actively try (and succeed, yikes!) to shut Kristen up in a way he didnât with Ozzie
âŠthough the difference is that with Kristen Ed was, from the start, the assaulter and Kristen the victim?
with Ed and Ozzie this is flipped – Ed is the victim now and Ozzie is the one assaulting him, because even though Ozzie does ultimately back down from his physical attack, heâs still confronting Ed verbally in ways that seemingly make Ed afraid (however logical or illogical that fear might be) – oooh and whether Ozzie knows it or not, via his words/actions he is âshutting upâ a part of Ed, like Ed shut up KristenâŠ
âŠbut Kristen and Ozzie are, with their words, forcing Ed to confront a side, or possible side, of himself he, ostensibly, doesnât want to confront though – ie. the part of him that could be labelled âpsychopathâ or âRiddler,â so there is that in common to both⊠and while Edâs reaction to the label âpsychopathâ is violently negative, his reaction to the label âRiddlerâ is more, nuanced I guess? Like, he absolutely doesnât want to accept that he might be a psychopath, but part of him is happy and even longs to accept the mantle of âRiddlerâ âŠbecause itâs an identity that paints his darker urges in a more positive light? heâs not a psychopath, heâs The RiddlerâŠ
(since weâre comparing the reunion scene to others, I still think thereâs a bunch of compelling contrasts/comparisons to the scene with Izzyâs cosplay too, damn wish I could make gifs :p)
Well, and itâs not just that being Riddler paints his darker urges in a more positive light. He said as much to Fox, that heâs always felt like there was someone inside him who was smarter and stronger and more desirable, someone to be feared. He said as much to Oswald that first time too, that he has become a butterfly and canât go back to being a caterpillar. He doesnât just see that side of him as powerful, but beautiful too.
He actively seeks out becoming this person again post-ice all the way up until a nice, pretty woman tells him she likes him better without it. And he cares about her and doesnât want to lose her friendship (or relationship, if you donât think Riddler planted that thought too) so boom, he splits off again. Riddler only appears when Ed needs to shove part of himself down, the part of him that is so powerful and that he wants to be so badly that it literally canât be contained and explodes out of him like a bomb in a fist.
So yes, I definitely think Ed had both the means and the motivation to shut Oswald up the way he shut Kristen up. Itâs not like he hasnât tried to kill him 925483 different ways already, and it isnât like Ed didnât have the physical upper hand, and itâs not even like he froze completely. He sprang into action the second Oswald started threatening to say the name, and Oswald didnât have a grip on him, Ed is the one who grabbed Oswald as opposed to leaving or reacting the way he did with Kristen. Because I think youâre absolutely right. Itâs not that he himself doesnât want to be the Riddler, doesnât want Oswald to validate that heâs the Riddler. If Lee hadnât inadvertently turned Ed against being the Riddler, itâs still something Ed would have been actively seeking out.
if ed really did say âi have a strong desire to..â and paused, can i just remind you all that when he was trying to figure out whether oswald had killed isabella. he said âi have a strong desire to become more than friends.â we know the writers are all about parallels, i mean he could have went to say it but stopped himself. I dunno we will see. itâs gotham though so i wont get my hopes up.
I honestly thought, for just a milisecond, he was gonna say âto kiss youâ
When you fall in love, it is a temporary madness. It erupts like an earthquake, and then it subsides. And when it subsides, you have to make a decision. You have to work out whether your roots are to become so entwined together that it is inconceivable that you should ever part. Because this is what love is. Love is not breathlessness, it is not excitement, it is not the desire to mate every second of the day. It is not lying awake at night imagining that he is kissing every part of your body. No ⊠donât blush. I am telling you some truths. For that is just being in love; which any of us can convince ourselves we are. Love itself is what is left over, when being in love has burned away. Doesnât sound very exciting, does it? But it is!
Riddler has always been the one insisting that Ed is in love with Lee.
Riddler also REALLY wants to be back in control.
Now, I know weâve had all these things about future romance with Ed/Riddler and Lee, but likeâŠ
What if this was all a ploy by Riddler to get back on top? Including the Lee thing? Like
Convince Ed heâs in love with Lee – heâs kinda dumb about the difference between love, infatuation and friendship anyway so, easy enough.
Having convinced Ed heâs in love with Lee, threaten to kill her.
Use the fact that Ed will now want to protect the woman he âlovesâ to make him do whatever Riddler wants, ultimately paving the way for Riddler to come out on top.
(Addendum to 3 really) Oh look whoâs in Arkham and could really use Riddler as a friend right now; think weâve found our method, lads.
The fact that itâs kinda hazy whether Ed/Riddler knew Oswald was in Arkham back when the Lee thing first came up just shows that heâs maybe learned from Oswald a bit – have half a plan, work out the details of the end of it later.
I agree! I notice how when he says to Oswald he has friends and a purpose and doesnât even mention about having someone he loves. If he hates Oswald SOOOO much why wouldnât he rub it in his face he âloves Lee?â I think he always needed to reconcile wanting to make up with Oswald (in love with him) and that Ed/Riddler is conscious v subconscious. Look how sarcastic Riddler says âLee being the love of your life and allâ and Ed says âweâre just friends.â I think he always planned on visiting Oswald during this because I think the entire thing was about needing Oswald but not wanting to admit it. Arkham just happened to be where he was and Riddler let Ed believe heâs there to gloat. I think the way 14 was written when Ed says âno youâre wrong I came here to save Leeâ it seems like he thinks heâs doing things for one reason but itâs really another rather. Heâs mocking and doing all this bullshit because he needs Osâ attention because Os became apathetic. He just doesnât wanna see he loves Oswald. I mean the writing is solid for this but IDK what the writers are doing but they are solid for this and it pisses me off this writing is SO SOLID and the only reason itâs not solid for them is because theyâre m/m and that is the truth. THE ENTIRE scene in Arkham with Ed/Riddler/Oswald screams every scene where someone doesnât want to accept their attraction to the same sex/someone whatever. Itâs just a shame this canât be sure for us.
All of thisâŠ
If that boy doesnât repress his romantic feelings for Oswald then whatâs the point of all this build upâŠ
1) What is this all about. Definitely still in the same idea of what weâre talking above here.
2) Ed reproduced the same pattern with Lee that he had with Oswald when he was supporting him during his mayoral campaign. Heâs pushed her and adviced her so she could be at her best once she gave him some value. She became the queen of the Narrows by herself, and he was again in this role of âchief of staffâ all over again as a right hand man (really lowkey compared to the things he has done for Oswald before, but thatâs gonna be kind of my point here). I donât know if the writers actually intended about giving this a meaning in the way that I still doubt very strongly that theyâd go for Ed and Oz as an actual couple, and that itâs just them and their undying love for making parallels over and over again cause itâs good for the aesthetic and for the possible Ed/Lee arc, but it would also 100% fit the theory of him repressing romantic feelings for Oswald and transferring those onto someone else like @we-dance-like-marionettesâ said.
Also remember how Ed tricked Butch in 3A? Ed said to him: âI was not cut out to be number twoâ leading Butch to think he could actually betray Oswald just to let him think he would want to have the crown and run Gotham, but all of this was just Ed wanting to expose Butch in the end so he would remain the only one at Oswaldâs side and have him all for him, doing his best to protect him. Well Ed proved all along that he didnât mind being ânumber twoâ at all during that time, simply because Ed and Oswald donât share the same interests/goals, and have a personality and a complexity on their own. Like Ed said before to Barbara, he doesnât have any interest into running Gotham. Ed just wants to have his own little âfunâ with his schemes composed of puzzles and riddles that people never wanted to answer to before, dismissing him and just thinking heâs a weirdo. He just wants to experience those on the people who have either wronged him in the past and/or that he considered to be intellectually inferior to him just to prove that heâs better and smarter than everyone, to the point of actually leaving huge clues behind him as some sort of a provocation as in âeven with this you wonât beat me cause you canât compete with me, Iâm and always be the smarter one!!â, this is basically the whole point of the Riddler as a supervillain. And at the time his life had a meaning cause he was being useful to Oswald, and Oswald was giving his life a meaning, it works in both ways.
They were and still are connected âlike soulsâ:Â
One thing relevant to this that we saw this season:
This is what Ed is answering when Lee says to him: âI couldnât have done it without youâ in an attempt of reassuring him cause heâs feeling useless and without any purpose in life. Itâs him saying âI donât exist just to make your life easier, I donât care and Iâm not feeling itâ. He does look really upset.
I remember Oswald saying the same thing to him, that he would be lost without him when Ed was feeling shameful at the idea of disappointing him (the context was different, cause Ed just couldnât stand the idea of doing this to Oswald, and in that scene with Lee heâs being moody cause itâs all about him before she says she considers him as a friend but that sheâs also afraid of âthe Riddlerâ). And I think we all remember Edâs adorable reaction to Oswaldâs words:
My point is that he does seem like he doesnât want to reproduce what he did before emotionally speaking cause what happened with Oswald hurt him too much, so it looks like the same never ending story of him repressing his feelings for Oswald as always, and I guess that it could be easier to transfer those onto another person, pretending everything is fine to the point that heâs breaking. And we all know that one of Edâs biggest traits is being in denial regarding pretty much everything that concerns his sentiments and history with Oswald.Â
Just something to ponder onâŠ
What you two have said above would make a lot of sense in this whole Ed vs Riddler vs dark persona or whatever the fuck they want to call this mess/him, and about who is who, and why Ed would want to trick himself into believing heâs in love with Lee so he could actually go back to Oswald and rise again.
đ„ There is beauty in destructionđ„ 