I love all the little discussion about Edâs motivations in 4×14 and
whether he truly wanted to stop Oswald from calling him âRiddlerâ.
So
I thought Iâd bring out some contrasting visuals. Rewatching Kristenâs
scene, I realized it has some striking similarities and contrasts to
4×14.
2×06: âPlease donât call me that!â
4×14: âNo, please. Please donât. PLEASE!â
interesting⊠yes, Ed did actively try (and succeed, yikes!) to shut Kristen up in a way he didnât with Ozzie
âŠthough the difference is that with Kristen Ed was, from the start, the assaulter and Kristen the victim?
with Ed and Ozzie this is flipped – Ed is the victim now and Ozzie is the one assaulting him, because even though Ozzie does ultimately back down from his physical attack, heâs still confronting Ed verbally in ways that seemingly make Ed afraid (however logical or illogical that fear might be) – oooh and whether Ozzie knows it or not, via his words/actions he is âshutting upâ a part of Ed, like Ed shut up KristenâŠ
âŠbut Kristen and Ozzie are, with their words, forcing Ed to confront a side, or possible side, of himself he, ostensibly, doesnât want to confront though – ie. the part of him that could be labelled âpsychopathâ or âRiddler,â so there is that in common to both⊠and while Edâs reaction to the label âpsychopathâ is violently negative, his reaction to the label âRiddlerâ is more, nuanced I guess? Like, he absolutely doesnât want to accept that he might be a psychopath, but part of him is happy and even longs to accept the mantle of âRiddlerâ âŠbecause itâs an identity that paints his darker urges in a more positive light? heâs not a psychopath, heâs The RiddlerâŠ
(since weâre comparing the reunion scene to others, I still think thereâs a bunch of compelling contrasts/comparisons to the scene with Izzyâs cosplay too, damn wish I could make gifs :p)
Well, and itâs not just that being Riddler paints his darker urges in a more positive light. He said as much to Fox, that heâs always felt like there was someone inside him who was smarter and stronger and more desirable, someone to be feared. He said as much to Oswald that first time too, that he has become a butterfly and canât go back to being a caterpillar. He doesnât just see that side of him as powerful, but beautiful too.
He actively seeks out becoming this person again post-ice all the way up until a nice, pretty woman tells him she likes him better without it. And he cares about her and doesnât want to lose her friendship (or relationship, if you donât think Riddler planted that thought too) so boom, he splits off again. Riddler only appears when Ed needs to shove part of himself down, the part of him that is so powerful and that he wants to be so badly that it literally canât be contained and explodes out of him like a bomb in a fist.
So yes, I definitely think Ed had both the means and the motivation to shut Oswald up the way he shut Kristen up. Itâs not like he hasnât tried to kill him 925483 different ways already, and it isnât like Ed didnât have the physical upper hand, and itâs not even like he froze completely. He sprang into action the second Oswald started threatening to say the name, and Oswald didnât have a grip on him, Ed is the one who grabbed Oswald as opposed to leaving or reacting the way he did with Kristen. Because I think youâre absolutely right. Itâs not that he himself doesnât want to be the Riddler, doesnât want Oswald to validate that heâs the Riddler. If Lee hadnât inadvertently turned Ed against being the Riddler, itâs still something Ed would have been actively seeking out.
Riddler has always been the one insisting that Ed is in love with Lee.
Riddler also REALLY wants to be back in control.
Now, I know weâve had all these things about future romance with Ed/Riddler and Lee, but likeâŠ
What if this was all a ploy by Riddler to get back on top? Including the Lee thing? Like
Convince Ed heâs in love with Lee – heâs kinda dumb about the difference between love, infatuation and friendship anyway so, easy enough.
Having convinced Ed heâs in love with Lee, threaten to kill her.
Use the fact that Ed will now want to protect the woman he âlovesâ to make him do whatever Riddler wants, ultimately paving the way for Riddler to come out on top.
(Addendum to 3 really) Oh look whoâs in Arkham and could really use Riddler as a friend right now; think weâve found our method, lads.
The fact that itâs kinda hazy whether Ed/Riddler knew Oswald was in Arkham back when the Lee thing first came up just shows that heâs maybe learned from Oswald a bit – have half a plan, work out the details of the end of it later.
I agree! I notice how when he says to Oswald he has friends and a purpose and doesnât even mention about having someone he loves. If he hates Oswald SOOOO much why wouldnât he rub it in his face he âloves Lee?â I think he always needed to reconcile wanting to make up with Oswald (in love with him) and that Ed/Riddler is conscious v subconscious. Look how sarcastic Riddler says âLee being the love of your life and allâ and Ed says âweâre just friends.â I think he always planned on visiting Oswald during this because I think the entire thing was about needing Oswald but not wanting to admit it. Arkham just happened to be where he was and Riddler let Ed believe heâs there to gloat. I think the way 14 was written when Ed says âno youâre wrong I came here to save Leeâ it seems like he thinks heâs doing things for one reason but itâs really another rather. Heâs mocking and doing all this bullshit because he needs Osâ attention because Os became apathetic. He just doesnât wanna see he loves Oswald. I mean the writing is solid for this but IDK what the writers are doing but they are solid for this and it pisses me off this writing is SO SOLID and the only reason itâs not solid for them is because theyâre m/m and that is the truth. THE ENTIRE scene in Arkham with Ed/Riddler/Oswald screams every scene where someone doesnât want to accept their attraction to the same sex/someone whatever. Itâs just a shame this canât be sure for us.
All of thisâŠ
If that boy doesnât repress his romantic feelings for Oswald then whatâs the point of all this build upâŠ
1) What is this all about. Definitely still in the same idea of what weâre talking above here.
2) Ed reproduced the same pattern with Lee that he had with Oswald when he was supporting him during his mayoral campaign. Heâs pushed her and adviced her so she could be at her best once she gave him some value. She became the queen of the Narrows by herself, and he was again in this role of âchief of staffâ all over again as a right hand man (really lowkey compared to the things he has done for Oswald before, but thatâs gonna be kind of my point here). I donât know if the writers actually intended about giving this a meaning in the way that I still doubt very strongly that theyâd go for Ed and Oz as an actual couple, and that itâs just them and their undying love for making parallels over and over again cause itâs good for the aesthetic and for the possible Ed/Lee arc, but it would also 100% fit the theory of him repressing romantic feelings for Oswald and transferring those onto someone else like @we-dance-like-marionettesâ said.
Also remember how Ed tricked Butch in 3A? Ed said to him: âI was not cut out to be number twoâ leading Butch to think he could actually betray Oswald just to let him think he would want to have the crown and run Gotham, but all of this was just Ed wanting to expose Butch in the end so he would remain the only one at Oswaldâs side and have him all for him, doing his best to protect him. Well Ed proved all along that he didnât mind being ânumber twoâ at all during that time, simply because Ed and Oswald donât share the same interests/goals, and have a personality and a complexity on their own. Like Ed said before to Barbara, he doesnât have any interest into running Gotham. Ed just wants to have his own little âfunâ with his schemes composed of puzzles and riddles that people never wanted to answer to before, dismissing him and just thinking heâs a weirdo. He just wants to experience those on the people who have either wronged him in the past and/or that he considered to be intellectually inferior to him just to prove that heâs better and smarter than everyone, to the point of actually leaving huge clues behind him as some sort of a provocation as in âeven with this you wonât beat me cause you canât compete with me, Iâm and always be the smarter one!!â, this is basically the whole point of the Riddler as a supervillain. And at the time his life had a meaning cause he was being useful to Oswald, and Oswald was giving his life a meaning, it works in both ways.
They were and still are connected âlike soulsâ:Â
One thing relevant to this that we saw this season:
This is what Ed is answering when Lee says to him: âI couldnât have done it without youâ in an attempt of reassuring him cause heâs feeling useless and without any purpose in life. Itâs him saying âI donât exist just to make your life easier, I donât care and Iâm not feeling itâ. He does look really upset.
I remember Oswald saying the same thing to him, that he would be lost without him when Ed was feeling shameful at the idea of disappointing him (the context was different, cause Ed just couldnât stand the idea of doing this to Oswald, and in that scene with Lee heâs being moody cause itâs all about him before she says she considers him as a friend but that sheâs also afraid of âthe Riddlerâ). And I think we all remember Edâs adorable reaction to Oswaldâs words:
My point is that he does seem like he doesnât want to reproduce what he did before emotionally speaking cause what happened with Oswald hurt him too much, so it looks like the same never ending story of him repressing his feelings for Oswald as always, and I guess that it could be easier to transfer those onto another person, pretending everything is fine to the point that heâs breaking. And we all know that one of Edâs biggest traits is being in denial regarding pretty much everything that concerns his sentiments and history with Oswald.Â
Just something to ponder onâŠ
What you two have said above would make a lot of sense in this whole Ed vs Riddler vs dark persona or whatever the fuck they want to call this mess/him, and about who is who, and why Ed would want to trick himself into believing heâs in love with Lee so he could actually go back to Oswald and rise again.
Regardless of whether you ship Nygmobblepot or not, Ed & Oswaldâs relationship has always been marked by Love.Â
They met in the woods because of love. Ed killed Kristen because he loved her too much to let her go. Oswald lost his mother because the Galavans used his love for her against him.
They meet again in Arkham. Oswald visits Ed for help sorting his thoughts out about Fish, and he was only confused in the first place because Oswald didnât realize that Fish loved him like a son.Â
Oswald gets Ed out of Arkham to join his campaign as mayor. Ed presents Oswald with a riddle about love and shows Oswald how the public loves him. (Also I know most people donât look at the OST song titles, but when Oswald presents Ed with their framed certificates (ie before Ed is made Chief of Staff), the OST that is playing is titled âPenguin in Love.â Itâs the first time we hear this OST. Just Saying.)
Oswald falls in love with Ed. Ed falls in love with Isabella. The Riddler is named as a result of this love and the feud begins.
Ed gets unfrozen because Myrtle Jenkins loved him as his biggest fan and saves him, leading Oswald to hold a manhunt for him, reaching to the Narrows, where Ed decides the best thing to mock Oswald with is by shouting âI know you love me, You donât love me?â Ed stays in the Narrows instead of being captured by Oswald for his mockery because Edâs under Leeâs protection, and The Riddler reveals that Edâs dedication to Leeâs leadership is because heâs is love with Lee.
Oswald and Ed meet again in Arkham. Oswald is in Arkham because he faked the death of Martin, who he loved like a son.Â
The Riddler manipulated Ed into signing himself into Arkham so Oswald could set him free by using Edâs love for Lee against him.Â
 Their entire relationship was created and changed by Love, even when it wasnât for each other.
And now, Oswald and the Riddler are together again. I canât wait to see how love marks their relationship now.
#this scene had that supposedly *humorous* tone cause of the contrast between them at the moment #but this was truly so gd heartbreaking in so many ways and the angst just kept flooding after that #Ed already being right in the middle of a paranoid crisis therefore thinking Oswald would instantly give him to the police #if he was sharing his plans regarding Jim with him #Ed looking confused and so uncomfortable when he realizes that Oswald isnât there anymore even if heâs standing in flesh before him #realizing that the mind of the only other human being he was able to share with and could trust is gone cause of what Arkham has done to him #Ed fearing for himself if Oswald was gonna report him fearing he could end up being brainwashed and what he considers to be a vegetable #losing his intelligence aka the thing he treasures the most in his personality but also losing the new identity heâs starting to build #even thinking until the very end of the thing while he was getting caught and that it was over for him that Oswald did give him to Jim #that it was the only logical explanation on how Jim would have succeeded into beating him #now letâs talk about Oswald who got kicked out Edâs appartment the only person left he thought he has a connection with and could turn to #maybe even giving him a home once again like Ed had done earlier when he was badly injured #leaving after having been not so politely dismissed and rejected but still broadly smiling at Ed until he shut the door to his face #probably reflecting onto that once he was all alone trying to figure out what heâs done wrong while his mind canât even go there anymore #except via his guilt #probably thinking heâs just a burden to people whoâs embarrassing them more than anything else but that he deserves it in every single way #Oswald walking in the cold and the rain of Gotham reflecting on Gertrudâs grave on how alone he is and how his mother is dead because of him #lbr here I have too many feelings and not enough tags for this (@witchunters)
I was PHYSICAL HURT by this scene and the fact the two of them never met up again for the rest of the season, instead continuing to harbour god knows how many misconceptions about each other and each otherâs opinions of them as laid out so BEAUTIFULLY IN THESE TAGS UGH!
Their scene in Arkham next season was a BALM TO MY SOUL like, I canât even TELL YOU
Yes, the Riddler manifesting himself here (=Ed bringing himself down) to tell Ed that heâs naive to trust Oswald, that he canât have any sort of emotional bond with anyone, and only have him(self) to count on as to preserve himself is just the continuity of Edâs paranoia crisis in this moment. The Riddler knew he needed Oswald at the time so Ed could âprogress*, but he wasnât obviously very thrilled by Edâs emotional attachment to Oswald.
We can also assume that once Oswald got Ed out of Arkham, the Riddler didnât manifest cause he simply didnât need to, Ed didnât need him anymore (or the other way around, depending on how you/the writers think D.I.D works, ugh..). That part of Ed was at peace and was finally trusting Owald and accepted the fact that he was gonna be part of Edâs life for good and he was okay with that. Which is why where the Riddler was being possessive with Ed before naturally transferred/turned into Ed acting that way with Oswald, and why the things Ed did to protect Oswald and keep him all to himself were extreme when he has wanted to prove that he and only himself could be a valuable asset for Oswaldâs well-being, and that only the two of them could share this special and unique connection (no homo though).
After all the shit storm we all know about, the miscommunication and misunderstandings between those continues to this day. Ed would rather die than admitting to Oswald that he had missed him, drugged himself, fantasized about him, and went nuts and out of control without him (the only one knowing about this so far is Lucius when he was forced to play the role of Edâs shrink when Ed had confessed and admitted that to himself when he was high). And Oswald has his own pokerface as a protection for himself so he wouldnât let Ed know he still loves him even after Ed shot him, and to prove heâs not a slave of his emotions like he accused him to be.
In which Kristen Kringle is reduced to the status of a bicycle or a beloved sweater. No dignity, even in death.
P.S. Edward also mutilated her body before ultimately dismembering Kristen, piling her body parts into a trunk, and dumping it in a shallow grave. And then he killed some poor rando, and threw that guy on top of her.
He also toasted himself while âburyingâ her.
Thatâs an excellent point: he reframes her murder as the moment of his ârebirthâ or âunificationâ, or whatever the hell he calls it- Which flies in the face of the argument that he might have killer her accidentally- which he did not. Heâs a scientist and an anatomist, so he knows exactly how much pressure applied to the throat would be fatal. He wasnât dissociating when he murdered her, he wasnât experiencing a delusion or a hallucination- so it wasnât even âBad Edwardâ who physically extinguished her life. âBad Edwardâ only manifested afterwards- as he did when Edward murdered Tom Dougherty and disposed of Tomâs body, possibly experiencing a psychotic break. In the clumsy pseudo-scientific visual language of Gotham, itâs possible to read âBad Edwardâ as nothing more than the externalization of what Edward already knows about himself, that heâs a murderer. Anyway, any philosophizing about Kristenâs death in the grand scheme of Edwardâs narrative arc is asinine, because we saw exactly how it happened. He told her that heâd killed Tom. She, not surprisingly, wasnât thrilled to learn that sheâd slept with a murderer, and threatened to tell the police. What probably sealed Kristenâs fate: her oblique threat of sexual assault (âYouâre going to go to jail, and theyâre going to do terrible things to youâ). Of all of Edwardâs protestations, âIâm not like thatâ alone seems desperate, genuine. Maybe one day, the writers will give us some sort of explanation for Edwardâs bizarre, painful, destructive relationship to sexuality and gender, but until then- weâre left with the unequivocal image of him strangling a woman half his size to death in her underwear (right after sleeping with her, as though there needed to be a greater connection between sex and death) because she said he was unmanly.
This is my exact issue with his âcharacter developmentâ.Â
personal hypothesis: Ed never fractures when heâs with Oswald because Oswald is accepting of both the light and dark parts of him. Therefore, he never feels the need to compartmentalize the deviant parts of himself into a separate persona.
I love this theory so much! I think a perfect moment to showcase this is when Ed hands Oswald his itineraries for the day in 3×06. One for his mayoral duties and the other his criminal ones. Ed felt so at ease and comfortable in that role and he was great at it! Plus, Ozzie gave him all the positive reinforcement he needed and wanted.
Ugh- Oswaldâs going to rot in off-the-rack hell for the way he treats that little boy. In all likelihood, Sofiaâs going to join him there. On the positive side: this is terrible to watch, but it is in keeping with what was said about Oswald becoming âmore depravedâ, and Iâm certainly happy to see that Sofiaâs a complete monster. So⊠good work on this characterization⊠Gotham writers? It feels so weird to say that!
@rhavewellyarnbag  Oswald is treating Martin not as a child, but as a small adult. Yes, he should know better. I wonder, though-if thatâs how Oswald was treated, or if he had to act as adult at an inappropriately young age.
Why is Martin crying? Because Oswald has frightened him, or hurt his feelings; or, because heâs already working for Sofia and knows heâs going to betray Oswald?
Another thought: At the dinner, why did Pyg select Martin to use as a hostage, rather than any of the other children? Without inside information, how did he know that Martin was special to Oswald?
Sorry to butt in on your conversation, but your recent posts about Oswaldâs relationship with Martin and the light it might shed on his relationship with Gertrud has just been fascinating to me, and I wanted to chime in here because this thought occurred to me as well. Like, Gertrud and Oswaldâs relationship is weird on multiple levels, but one of them is the way it sort of collapses age? Is that the word I want? From the scenes we get of them in season 1 it seems like Oswald occupies several roles for his mother simultaneously. She obviously treats him like heâs still a young child in several scenes (the bath, talking about bullies), but sheâs also jealous of imaginary women when he disappears for days, treating him more like a lover or husband. And then we see him having to comfort and humor her several times, in a reversal of the parent-child dynamic. So yeah, I definitely get the sense that in some ways, Gertrud never wanted him to grow up, and in others, he was forced to grow up too early. (Related to that, I always wonder when he started having to work to support them both? Gertrud doesnât seem well enough to have been consistently employed. Do you think he finished high school?)
(I hope Iâm not coming off as excusing Oswaldâs treatment of Martin, btw. Itâs super gross, but also very intriguing as to what it says about his own childhood.)
I HATE how Ed lied to Isabella and to himself when he insisted killing his ex was an accident.
Yes, killing her was an accident, ok.
BUT WAS AN ACCIDENT ALSO CUT HER INTO PIECES, BURY THEM IN THE WOODS WHILE CELEBRATING ALL OF IT WITH A GLASS OF WINE?
Thank you for bringing this up. Ed had not been honest about all of that and what killing means to him. That was weird behavior. Like, really freaky behavior to bury her in the woods and then celebrate it. Most murders are committed out of necessity in gotham and the bodyâs are dispatched without flairâŠwhat Ed did was really chilling especially since people do this in real lifeâŠ
it kind of would take a person that fed his step siblings to his stem mother to be understanding of that behavior⊠Not a librarianâŠÂ
@rose-for-dead-alice said: âYâknow what fascinates me when it comes to his mental state. He
went from it being an accident, to enjoying the game and even telling
himself and later on Oswald that basically she was a gift to him to lead
him on a new path of his life. Then later on he seems whatever about it
and then later on he seems to go back to considering it a horrible
accident almost like it wasnât murder, like he had nothing to do with
it.Itâs interesting.
Just like when he thought Butch killed
Isabella he was just so gleeful about murdering him, like no big deal.
Then he found out it was actually Os who did it and he canât even fantasy kill him, he has to take time and just mentally destroy him but
not kill him.
His feelings towards these chicks are very complicated.â
ALL of this. No, cutting her up so sheâd fit in a box and having a picnic with said box was not an accident! Letâs also donât forget how Bad Ed put Kristenâs hand in a vending machine, either, to play games with Good Ed, and the two Eds both live in the same brain. No librarian could ever understand this! Ed is a killer who keeps souvenirs; murderers do that when they enjoy the act of killing so much, they want to re-live the murders over and over.
Oswald is the one who truly accepts Ed.
And yes, a thousand times yes-Ed flip flops about Kristen; he insisted to Oswald (when he called Oswald about Kristenâs glasses) that he really truly loved Kristen. Remember how angry he was when he asserted that he loved her? Kinda like how angry he gets when someone calls Isabella Isabelle. But yes, he also talked about how Kristenâs death was a gift.
Iâve never bought that Kristenâs death was an accident, but âpart of Edâ seems convinced thatâs what happened.
Yeah. Even though he gave that whole speech to Jim about embracing who he is, heâs still lying to himself.
Itâs kind of a parallel with what happened to Oswald when he got out of Arkham. Obviously Edward hasnât been trying to be a good guy, but he has been trying to recapture some of his old life when he was more innocent (i.e. revisiting the GCPD, pursuing Isabella). And, like with Oswald, someone he trusted killed someone he cared about.
@danniruthvan Wow, thatâs right-Oswaldâs stepmother, who he trusted, killed his dad; thatâs a parallel to Oswald killing Isabella, from Edâs point of view.
đ„ There is beauty in destructionđ„ 