I love all the little discussion about Edâs motivations in 4×14 and
whether he truly wanted to stop Oswald from calling him âRiddlerâ.
So
I thought Iâd bring out some contrasting visuals. Rewatching Kristenâs
scene, I realized it has some striking similarities and contrasts to
4×14.
2×06: âPlease donât call me that!â
4×14: âNo, please. Please donât. PLEASE!â
interesting⊠yes, Ed did actively try (and succeed, yikes!) to shut Kristen up in a way he didnât with Ozzie
âŠthough the difference is that with Kristen Ed was, from the start, the assaulter and Kristen the victim?
with Ed and Ozzie this is flipped – Ed is the victim now and Ozzie is the one assaulting him, because even though Ozzie does ultimately back down from his physical attack, heâs still confronting Ed verbally in ways that seemingly make Ed afraid (however logical or illogical that fear might be) – oooh and whether Ozzie knows it or not, via his words/actions he is âshutting upâ a part of Ed, like Ed shut up KristenâŠ
âŠbut Kristen and Ozzie are, with their words, forcing Ed to confront a side, or possible side, of himself he, ostensibly, doesnât want to confront though – ie. the part of him that could be labelled âpsychopathâ or âRiddler,â so there is that in common to both⊠and while Edâs reaction to the label âpsychopathâ is violently negative, his reaction to the label âRiddlerâ is more, nuanced I guess? Like, he absolutely doesnât want to accept that he might be a psychopath, but part of him is happy and even longs to accept the mantle of âRiddlerâ âŠbecause itâs an identity that paints his darker urges in a more positive light? heâs not a psychopath, heâs The RiddlerâŠ
(since weâre comparing the reunion scene to others, I still think thereâs a bunch of compelling contrasts/comparisons to the scene with Izzyâs cosplay too, damn wish I could make gifs :p)
Well, and itâs not just that being Riddler paints his darker urges in a more positive light. He said as much to Fox, that heâs always felt like there was someone inside him who was smarter and stronger and more desirable, someone to be feared. He said as much to Oswald that first time too, that he has become a butterfly and canât go back to being a caterpillar. He doesnât just see that side of him as powerful, but beautiful too.
He actively seeks out becoming this person again post-ice all the way up until a nice, pretty woman tells him she likes him better without it. And he cares about her and doesnât want to lose her friendship (or relationship, if you donât think Riddler planted that thought too) so boom, he splits off again. Riddler only appears when Ed needs to shove part of himself down, the part of him that is so powerful and that he wants to be so badly that it literally canât be contained and explodes out of him like a bomb in a fist.
So yes, I definitely think Ed had both the means and the motivation to shut Oswald up the way he shut Kristen up. Itâs not like he hasnât tried to kill him 925483 different ways already, and it isnât like Ed didnât have the physical upper hand, and itâs not even like he froze completely. He sprang into action the second Oswald started threatening to say the name, and Oswald didnât have a grip on him, Ed is the one who grabbed Oswald as opposed to leaving or reacting the way he did with Kristen. Because I think youâre absolutely right. Itâs not that he himself doesnât want to be the Riddler, doesnât want Oswald to validate that heâs the Riddler. If Lee hadnât inadvertently turned Ed against being the Riddler, itâs still something Ed would have been actively seeking out.
In which Kristen Kringle is reduced to the status of a bicycle or a beloved sweater. No dignity, even in death.
P.S. Edward also mutilated her body before ultimately dismembering Kristen, piling her body parts into a trunk, and dumping it in a shallow grave. And then he killed some poor rando, and threw that guy on top of her.
He also toasted himself while âburyingâ her.
Thatâs an excellent point: he reframes her murder as the moment of his ârebirthâ or âunificationâ, or whatever the hell he calls it- Which flies in the face of the argument that he might have killer her accidentally- which he did not. Heâs a scientist and an anatomist, so he knows exactly how much pressure applied to the throat would be fatal. He wasnât dissociating when he murdered her, he wasnât experiencing a delusion or a hallucination- so it wasnât even âBad Edwardâ who physically extinguished her life. âBad Edwardâ only manifested afterwards- as he did when Edward murdered Tom Dougherty and disposed of Tomâs body, possibly experiencing a psychotic break. In the clumsy pseudo-scientific visual language of Gotham, itâs possible to read âBad Edwardâ as nothing more than the externalization of what Edward already knows about himself, that heâs a murderer. Anyway, any philosophizing about Kristenâs death in the grand scheme of Edwardâs narrative arc is asinine, because we saw exactly how it happened. He told her that heâd killed Tom. She, not surprisingly, wasnât thrilled to learn that sheâd slept with a murderer, and threatened to tell the police. What probably sealed Kristenâs fate: her oblique threat of sexual assault (âYouâre going to go to jail, and theyâre going to do terrible things to youâ). Of all of Edwardâs protestations, âIâm not like thatâ alone seems desperate, genuine. Maybe one day, the writers will give us some sort of explanation for Edwardâs bizarre, painful, destructive relationship to sexuality and gender, but until then- weâre left with the unequivocal image of him strangling a woman half his size to death in her underwear (right after sleeping with her, as though there needed to be a greater connection between sex and death) because she said he was unmanly.
This is my exact issue with his âcharacter developmentâ.Â
personal hypothesis: Ed never fractures when heâs with Oswald because Oswald is accepting of both the light and dark parts of him. Therefore, he never feels the need to compartmentalize the deviant parts of himself into a separate persona.
I love this theory so much! I think a perfect moment to showcase this is when Ed hands Oswald his itineraries for the day in 3×06. One for his mayoral duties and the other his criminal ones. Ed felt so at ease and comfortable in that role and he was great at it! Plus, Ozzie gave him all the positive reinforcement he needed and wanted.
was having a great discussion last night with @fluxâandâflow about Isabellaâs abusive behaviour towards Ed with her forcing fake!Kristen and strangulation on/from him without his consent (albeit done out of âloveâ and with intent to help, paralleling how Eddieâs abuse of Kristen had the same intent, making it arguably a different flavour of abuse to, say, Tomâs of Kristen, who just flat out wanted to control/own – which is the bottom line of what I was getting confused about I think flux, not trying to justify either one, just getting lost in the specific motivations! based on my feeling that the show may have been trying to imply that Izzyâs abuse was somehow âgoodâ because of her intent, and the lack of immediately fatal and obviously psychologically damaging results!)
anyway, I thought of an additional question to ponder –
do you think Eddie himself (or Ozzie!) would have recognised/felt her behaviour as abuse/bad??
because I feel like Eddie, while scared AT THE TIME (though I still struggle to see him as scared OF her at any point) may well have come away from the experience with the opinion that her behaviour had been good/loving?
like, clearly he recognises (unwanted) physical harm like Tom forced on Kristen as abuse (we assume because of personal childhood experience of the same?), but⊠considering he himself got rough with Kristen and believed it loving (and I donât think weâve seen anything to suggest heâs ever questioned his behaviour with her?), and is chill with psychologically manipulating others for their own benefit without their consent (eg. Oswald and the trick with the little girl and arranging a clean election), I feel like he may well have not at any point actually seen or felt anything âwrongâ with Izzyâs behaviour?Â
(and presumably Ozzie âshe fought for himâ and âI wonât let you leave!â Cobblepot would have just seen it as fair tactics?? :p)
@littlehollyleaf To be honest, although I can see it was hamfisted to an extent, and could prompt a reading of abuse – I donât think they intended it that way.
I think they meant to show âIsabella understands Ed, can meet him âon his levelâ, is willing to endanger herself for him, and helped him to confront his demons and find peaceâ – which then gave his subsequent loss pathos.
Gotham can sometimes be a little tone-deaf (i.e utterly lazy and thoughtless) with how it does things. Off the top of my head, Alfred slapping Selina, Lee slapping an unconscious Babs, Jim saying he only stopped Ogre to save Lee.
In each respective instance, I think they wanted to show âAlfred is furious and grieving and doesnât take prisonersâ, âLee is a bad ass who fights for her manâ, and âJim really loves Leeâ – but the unfortunate way they went about each just said âthis character is a complete jerkâ.
@littlehollyleaf and @sunlitroom I got a different take on that scene when I first viewed it. After re-watching, I can certainly see the point about how it was abusive. I donât think Ed saw it that way-because he was happy afterwards and thought things were back on track with Isabella. I think Oswald would have seen it as Isabella pulling out the stops to get what she wanted.
However, I saw something a bit different. When Oswald visited her, she answered the door with a sweet, surprised expression. But behind Oswaldâs back, she rolled her eyes and looked disgusted and put out. She didnât yet know the purpose of Oswaldâs visit. What made me look twice, was that she dropped the âsweet librarianâ act and looked like a different person for a moment.
Moving on to the evening with Ed, letâs look at what happened when Ed tried to leave.
She grabbed him and pushed him all the way across the room. If we accept that Ed really was trying to leave-how was she strong enough to drag a man all the way across a room against his will? And when she placed his hands on her throat, why wasnât she at all afraid? Unless she knew that if he did try to choke her, sheâd be strong enough to fight him off, unlike Kristen. Letâs remember-Ed choked Kristen to death and she wasnât strong enough to fight him off. Letâs also think about Fake Bruceâs unusual strength.
One more detail-Iâve looked carefully at all the scenes which feature Isabellaâs apartment. Thereâs lots of clutter: collectables, dried flowers, framed artwork, lots of âstuffâ. So, where are the personal photographs? Family photos? Photos of friends? Theyâre conspicuously missing from the clutter (unlike the clutter at Gertrudeâs apartment, or the study at Wayne Manor.)
Yes, I know-Gotham probably wonât do anything else with Isabella But until the seasonâs over, Iâll still be sitting here with my conspiracy theories.
Trust me from experience she was being abusive and Ed comes from a home of being treated the way Isabella treated him. The show meant for that to be dark, not cathartic
@rose-for-dead-alice Even if Edâs backstory (which theyâve given us none of) is different from the abusive childhood he had in the comics, what happened in real time between him and Isabella is creepy, regardless.
Letâs imagine this: suppose the gender roles were reversed. Suppose a man grabbed a woman who was trying to leave, dragged her back into a room, and slapped her across the face. Then proceeded to convince her to have sex with him. That puts things in a different light. I think thereâs a double standard, that when men are treated in an abusive manner, we often donât call it out in the same way we would if the character was female.
I donât think Ed saw it as abuse, but yes; her behavior was abusive. What the writers intended, I donât know.
I HATE how Ed lied to Isabella and to himself when he insisted killing his ex was an accident.
Yes, killing her was an accident, ok.
BUT WAS AN ACCIDENT ALSO CUT HER INTO PIECES, BURY THEM IN THE WOODS WHILE CELEBRATING ALL OF IT WITH A GLASS OF WINE?
Thank you for bringing this up. Ed had not been honest about all of that and what killing means to him. That was weird behavior. Like, really freaky behavior to bury her in the woods and then celebrate it. Most murders are committed out of necessity in gotham and the bodyâs are dispatched without flairâŠwhat Ed did was really chilling especially since people do this in real lifeâŠ
it kind of would take a person that fed his step siblings to his stem mother to be understanding of that behavior⊠Not a librarianâŠÂ
@rose-for-dead-alice said: âYâknow what fascinates me when it comes to his mental state. He
went from it being an accident, to enjoying the game and even telling
himself and later on Oswald that basically she was a gift to him to lead
him on a new path of his life. Then later on he seems whatever about it
and then later on he seems to go back to considering it a horrible
accident almost like it wasnât murder, like he had nothing to do with
it.Itâs interesting.
Just like when he thought Butch killed
Isabella he was just so gleeful about murdering him, like no big deal.
Then he found out it was actually Os who did it and he canât even fantasy kill him, he has to take time and just mentally destroy him but
not kill him.
His feelings towards these chicks are very complicated.â
ALL of this. No, cutting her up so sheâd fit in a box and having a picnic with said box was not an accident! Letâs also donât forget how Bad Ed put Kristenâs hand in a vending machine, either, to play games with Good Ed, and the two Eds both live in the same brain. No librarian could ever understand this! Ed is a killer who keeps souvenirs; murderers do that when they enjoy the act of killing so much, they want to re-live the murders over and over.
Oswald is the one who truly accepts Ed.
And yes, a thousand times yes-Ed flip flops about Kristen; he insisted to Oswald (when he called Oswald about Kristenâs glasses) that he really truly loved Kristen. Remember how angry he was when he asserted that he loved her? Kinda like how angry he gets when someone calls Isabella Isabelle. But yes, he also talked about how Kristenâs death was a gift.
Iâve never bought that Kristenâs death was an accident, but âpart of Edâ seems convinced thatâs what happened.
Yeah. Even though he gave that whole speech to Jim about embracing who he is, heâs still lying to himself.
Itâs kind of a parallel with what happened to Oswald when he got out of Arkham. Obviously Edward hasnât been trying to be a good guy, but he has been trying to recapture some of his old life when he was more innocent (i.e. revisiting the GCPD, pursuing Isabella). And, like with Oswald, someone he trusted killed someone he cared about.
@danniruthvan Wow, thatâs right-Oswaldâs stepmother, who he trusted, killed his dad; thatâs a parallel to Oswald killing Isabella, from Edâs point of view.
#okay, letâs talk about this #i know that ed was insistent sometimes but #he was truly sweet to kristen at the beginning and she always treated him like he was nothing, making him feel useless and weird #câmon look at his face in the left gifs #and now letâs talk about edâs genuine smile when oswald showed him kindness and appreciation #heâs the first person whoâs kind to him and who truly admire him #sooo wake up ed the love of your life is right in front of you
Like I feel bad for her cause having a guy insist on being with you when itâs obvious you arenât into him is scary and maddening.
But also like you said there is the point where she did treat him like garbage, then she only dated him cause he got shot for her and told her they were going to date. She never really loved him, she just wanted to make him a guy she would want. Oswald on the other hand seems to accept and genuinely enjoy Ed and his things that make him Ed.
^ Exactly!! đđŒđđŒđđŒ
>Oswald wanted him around, exactly as he was. >Kristen didnât want him around, and when she did deign to have him around he had to change the way he acted to please her.
please tell me which one is healthier like??? >>>itâs a rhetorical question
ListenâŠÂ  This is why I didnât and will never ship Ed and Kristen. She was mean to him and treated him like dirt. Like I understand that he was making unwanted advances but Ed didnât understand that what he doing wasnât okay. He doesnât understand social interaction all that well, that was made clear in season 1.Â
All Kristen did was yell and say mean things to him but I donât think she ever told him that she wasnât interested in him. Maybe she did and it just wasnât shown and I know itâs clear to everyone else that sheâs not interested but it clearly wasnât to Ed. And I get it, telling a guy to back off can be scary but she had no problem yelling at him and telling him that he is odd straight to his face, so I donât think that was the issue. I think she found Ed annoying and weird but still liked the attention that he gave her.Â
Like, I have a friend who used to have someone like her the way Ed liked Kristen. He did things for her and gave her gifts, called her phone a lot and sent texts despite her not replying, and basically stalked her so much that she would refer to him as âstalkerâ when we would talk about him. But, while she yelled at him sometimes for his behavior she never told him to back off because he wasnât threatening or dangerous. She also never let me go after him for any of the weird shit he did even though I told her that I would beat him up and tell him off for her if he ever got to be too much (I was a violent person before). But the reason for that, as I found of later, was because she liked the attention even if she didnât like him and found him annoying. I think Kristen was the same way.
She didnât want to encourage his feelings in anyway but she also still wanted to continue to receive attention from him. And listen, Iâm not just pulling this out of nowhere.Â
Remember the scene where Kristen walked in while Ed had Officer Doughertyâs body in the sink? When Ed and Kristen interact normally Ed would compliment her or tell her a riddle, but in this instant she asks him questions and he just answers them and then waits for her to leave. No riddle, no compliment, nothing. When he tells her that he has to get back to work and he needs her to leave and he basically kicks her out, her reaction is one of surprise. Sheâs just like, uhh okay, and gets ushered out the door. Edâs not normally one to kick her out, normally sheâs the one kicking him out. I think she was stalling a bit because she was expecting the usual riddle or compliment from Ed but wasnât getting one, and didnât get one. So, yeah, while she doesnât like Ed she likes his attention.Â
Even when she decides to date him, she only liked him because he was acting differently. She never liked Ed for him. She wanted him to change.
Oswald however, accepted Ed for who he was. Never expecting him to change, loving him and all his quirks, and constantly giving him positive feedback and validation. Oswald was the first person to truly show him kindness and genuine appreciation. Oswald is the true love of Edwardâs life. He just needs to figure that out and I hope he does soon.
THIS ^ God this was brilliant. I needed this. Couldnât have said it better myself.
âKristen is the one person who like, floods him with this history of who he used to be and what he used to want, and he canât help but be like, consumed by what could potentially be a second chance.â
Cory says that Isabella brings Edward back to who he was before he killed Kristen. Yet Edward has repeatedly said that he likes who he is now, and he is certainly âhitting his strideâ working for Oswald. Cory has said that Edward enjoys working for Penguin and has fun manipulating things in his favor, itâs literally the perfect job for him.
He has everything he wants.
Going off of that, when Ed said âwhat more could anyone ask forâ to Oswald I feel like he was saying it too, y’know? He is just so happy where he is right now.
I think that he truly does not want to go back to who he was, but I also think that heâs going to explore the possibility and entertain the idea for the time being with Isabella anyway. This is because he wants to be sure that Oswald- and a life of Riddlesâą Â and Crimeâą – are what he truly wants
Which, I mean, DUH. Heâs gonna become The Riddler, of course he doesnât want Isabella and what she represents. She is a kind of metaphor for what Edward used to want, and where he wanted it from: love, praise, and acceptance from peers. He still wants those things, those feelings, but he is receiving them from a different source. Right now, he is getting what he truly desires more than anything from Oswald, and through more nefarious means than Kristen (ânormalcyâ) offered.
TD;DR Ed is getting closure from his old life by using Isabella. This is part of his his journey to becoming The Riddler; he needs to completely leave Kristen and everything she represents behind in order to fully commit. But this is Gotham so of course itâs going to go horribly wrong đ
gaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh *crying*
-pats your head-
I know⊠I knowâŠ
Fuck⊠it went horribly wrong, just like I thought when she was first introduced.
As in Ed didnât let go of her through a conscious decision; Oswald made the decision for him
He is getting closer to becoming the Riddler
Hopefully he will realize that Oswald still satisfies what he needs most đ
đ„ There is beauty in destructionđ„ 