If that was supposed to be an actual Kamehameha, it would have been one not even aimed at his enemy and meant to be fired into the crowd. He was literally only testing the motions to see if he could replicate them, the little flame he shot out was actually not really intended.
Krillinās also exceptionally gifted at manipulating energy, He taught himself how to fire a homing shot on his own:
He taught himself how to fly.
He created a move capable of killing Raditz many times over:
He created a move capable of taking out enemies far stronger than himself (without killing himself to do it, no less)
And even learned to channel the energy of the Spirit Bomb with simple verbal instruction, something Goku had to really work at.
And his skill in combat was enough to actually make Piccolo tap into his true power back when they fought.
Krillinās a very nimble fighter who can withstand a lot of punishment, and heās also a very versatile, quick-thinking combatant whoās known for his ability to strategize on the fly.
Well, given that Bardockās story ends the same regardless of which version, Iād have to say I liked his Minus depiction more. The Special was cool as a kid and all, but looking at it now, it made Gokuās fight with Freeza seem far too fated, and just the wholeĀ āyou can see the future because I touched yaā thing was super convenient.
Plus it actually makes him seemingly start to care aboutĀ āKakarotā seem a lot less out of left field.
Plus it gave us Gine, who explains a lot about Gohan, AND a more plausible reason why specifically Raditz and Nappa were spared along with Vegeta; completely by accident and virtue of Freeza lacking the patience to make sure they all actually returned.
I disagree with this honestly. With Minus, Toriyama singlehandedly ruined gokuās character arc. It turned him from his own character to more of a Superman esque character. Minus tries to make bardock and goku special because of the power of love. His parents send him to earth so he will flourish, much like Superman.
In the original rendition Bardok doesnāt care much for his family. He is a Saiyan warrior raised on the planet. Heās special, but not because of the power of love. Heās special because he exploits zenkai boosts to become an elite. His son, Goku, is sent to earth to destroy all life on it. He ends up getting amnesia and becomes the hero of the planet he was destined to destroy. He saves that world from his people and eventually is able to avenge his whole race from the tyrant that destroyed them in the first place. He does this by his own hard work and working together with others. He breaks his limits time and time again for his own unconscious selfish desire.
Minus sends him to earth to flurish and be their hero, the original has him become the hero on his own merits. Not because his parents loved him and were special for doing so. It just seems very convoluted that theyād take this type of character development away from a character who hasnāt really developed in over 20 years.
ā¦Minus literally only sends him to Earth to hide him from Freeza.
Thatās it. Heās sent there because it can presumably keep him alive. Heās never once sent there to be a hero. Thereās no implication anyoneās āspecialā because of the āpower of loveā. Bardock is still very much a Saiyan, enjoying his exploits, and heās still risen in rank despite his status.
Literally the only thing different is Bardock cares about his family and stuck with his mate beyond the reproductive process, which while unusual, is notĀ āuniqueā orĀ āspecialā.
Yeah know itās funny, both had their ups and downs. Iām more for ruthless bardock from the special but I do enjoy his interactions with Gine n actually caring for his kid. But the manga also contradicts with what Raditz said to him when he first arrived.
I kinda wish there was a way to fuse the two.
It actually does not.
The Scouters, as you know, are a communication hub. People can listen in and overhear conversations on them. Itās part of how Freeza keeps his minions in line.
For Gine to inform Raditz of the real reason Goku was sent to Earth would be to essentially spill the beans to Freeza. So it would stand to reason that she either lied and told Raditz his brother had been sent as an infiltration baby, or that he was entered into the system as such to cover their tails and Raditz learned about it later. The only way she could have told him the truth would have been in person, and he never came back.
Which was why he lived and all.
I have one issue with Minus.
I always LIKED the depiction of Saiyans as a race as were presented to us in the Saiyan saga and especially what it told us about Goku as a character. He shouldāve been a villain, he shouldāve destroyed life on Earth, but he went another direction. The implications of what he couldāve been had he not hit his head are fascinating to think about.
When Minus came out later and told us he had loving parents, and no mission to destroy life on Earth, that really fell flat for me, not just for Gokuās character arc, but for the Dragon Ball story as a whole
I think the issue that a lot of people have with Dragon Ball Minus is that they judge it as a standalone story, when it really isnāt. Minus was supposed to be a supplementary chapter to Jaco the Intergalactic Patrolman. You canāt just read Minus without reading Jaco, because there are certain things that just donāt make sense unless you have read Jaco.
Minus never said that Kakarot came to Earth as a hero. Minus never retconned anything that was already established in the Saiyan Saga.
In Jaco the Intergalactic Patrolman, Jaco arrives to Earth precisely because there is an alien threat that is en-route to Earth, and his task is to destroy this alien before he matures. But typical with Jaco, he ends up missing the space pod as it lands on Earth, so naturally he assumes that it has missed its mark. The comic then cuts to a brief moment with Grandpa Gohan and Kakarot. And Grandpa Gohan implies that he was attacked by Kakarot and had to defend himself upon meeting him.
Iād argue itās more in-character than Grandpa Gohanās meeting in Bardock Father of Goku, since all Kakarot did in that was laugh and playfully kick him. Here he outright attacked Gohan.
Kakarot still arrived on Earth as an angry baby who would eventually hit his head. Just because Bardock and Gine sent him to Earth to keep him safe, doesnāt mean that Kakarotās instincts as a Saiyan wouldnāt kick in. Minus doesnāt change any of that. If anything, the only thing it ever did was provide a different background of whyĀ Kakarot was sent to Earth.
āMinus never said that Kakarot came to Earth as a hero. Minus never retconned anything that was already established in the Saiyan Saga.ā
Goodness gracious me, Goku making sure Gohanās safe before fighting and showing concern for his sonās well-being?!
I was told this was something heād never do!
But I feel like this was stuck in the game intentionally to show some kind of character growth because we all know Goku has always had issues thinking of others when he decides he wants to fight someone.Ā
Not necessarily, no.
Even when completely enraged he took the time to tell Gohan to take Piccolo and get somewhere safe before it overtook him completely. And when they came back to face Freeza after his return, Goku moved him and Piccoloās body out of harmās way before fighting.
he is the kind of person that rathers get hurt before watching his friends get hurt, this has always been since he was a kid.
Damn, these are solid points all around! Toriyama should probably read itĀ šĀ
(AAAAAAYYYYY)
Iāve never really thought Goku didnāt love his son, just that in alot of instances his whole family (Gohan included) came second in alot of things. Heās valued training and getting stronger over alot of things, going so far as too staying dead after the Cell saga so he could keep training and leaving his wife (who was pregnant) to raise their kids alone.
He made Gohan fight Cell when Gohan was more of a scholar. He COULD fight and had a strong sense of justice, but until he got pushed emotionally he was absolutely pummeled.
During the Buu saga after managing to actually get their kids and Piccolo out of Buu Goku chose Hercule and Supreme Kai to save, leaving the unconscious children and his son to die in the Earthās explosion. Even Vegeta gets pissed at him. (Yes, in the end itās Hercule that saves the day but really? No tears? Nothing deep or emotional from Goku? )
The thing about Goku is heās dumb. Yesā¦.DBS hasā¦ exaggerated that a but more but he is. He is simple because he never had schooling. For fucks sake he wondered if Bulma was injured cause she didnāt have a penis. He didnāt even know what marriage was. He is a very selfish individual who fights because he wants to and believes that others feel the same way mostly cause, as I see it from how heās been shown to us through his entire presence through the dragon Ball series, thatās how he was raised. He didnāt know anything but training and sparring and thatās the world he grew up in.
Itās worked for him, so why change? Surely his own kids feel the same way? He loves them but honestly it feels like he subconsciously adopted the Saiyan method of raising a kid.
Donāt do it yourself. Let them get stronger and fight their own battles.
Goku decided to stay dead after the Cell Games because he felt it was his fault that so many bad guys appeared on Earth. And he did have a point – the saiyans, Frieza, the androids, and Cell. Getting to fight warriors in Otherworld was just a plus and probably something he said so his loved ones wouldn’t worry about him. He would have plenty to do. Besides, it’s not like he knew Chi Chi was pregnant at the time. He he had no clue whatsoever.
As for Gohan fighting Cell. Gohan was literally the ONLY one who could defeat Cell. Goku knows full well that his son wants to be a scholar and used that to encourage him. That way after the battle was over, his son could have a future and live to do what he wants.
And it’s not like Goku was thrilled and happy to see his son get thrashed. This is why I hate the anime potrayal of this fight – it shows Goku smiling throughout the whole thing, but in the manga this just really isn’tthe case. He was clearly worried.
Gohan had to be pushed beyond his limit and to anger, otherwise he wouldn’t have fought back.
And it’s not like Cell would just be okay and call of the Cell Games. He had every intention to kill everyone and destroy Earth if he wasn’t stopped. Again, Gohan was the only hope.
As for Kid Buu. Goku had every intention to use IT to save everyone else after he saved Hercule and Dende, but there wasn’t enough time. And idk why you say Goku showed no emotion. He was visiblyupset.
Finally, once again, Goku knows full well that Gohan wants to be a scholar, but I don’t exactly blame him if he may have thought otherwise because look at Gohan’s behavior throughout the series – he came back out of his own free will, after Goku sent him and Krillin away, to fight Vegeta. He wanted to go to Planet Namek, and hewanted to train everytime against the androids. This is also true of Goten, that on some level, he enjoyed fighting when he was a kid. I mean, he and Trunks always rushed off to check out what was going on when they sensed great power levels; they always wanted to stay and watch the fights. Plus, as Gotenks, you can’t tell me they didn’t enjoy fighting. So, that is some pretty mixed messages right there. Gohan wants to be a scholar, but on the other hand, he can have fun fighting (e.g. He was impatient to wait his turn on Babidi’s ship)
As for Goku leaving the fate of the world’s hand onto the next generation. To be honest, although dangerous, that is actually realistic and healthy. His kids and his friends cannot depend on him all their lives. They have to become independant and be able to look after themselves. It may seem selfish and harsh, but this is the truth.
Goku won’t be around forever. He knows this. For all intents and purposes, Goku shouldn’t have lived again after Cell. Even the dragon balls have limits.
And let’s be real. In this series, bad guys will always pop up eventually. What will happen on the day Goku has passed away and won’t be able to come back and help? Eventually, he will stay dead, no exception, and no chance of returning to Earth. It will be permanent one day (just like in Mirai Trunks’ timeline).
Thus, it’s best everyone else be ready. Yes, it’s hard and such a heavy burden to carry, but I mean, that is why people like Krillin and Gohan go back to training so they will be strong to protect their loved ones. They do it because they want to. They want to be strong to protect that they hold precious. Again, they can’t expect Goku to be around forever. They can’t always count on him to save them (e.g. He was powerless against Cell, Beerus, etc).
Goku may seem like a simple character who is irresponsible and merely loves fighting, but that just isn’t the case. He is actually a really smart and complex character when you take off your meme goggles and really look at this series deeply and all the evidence in the manga.
I would seriously love to see this ridiculous show in which Vegeta is a better father or character in general over Goku. This Vegeta worship is insane.
It is. Very much so. Especially since almost every example ofĀ āGood Dad Vegetaā is taken from Super, which they then also sh*t on for supposedlyĀ ādisrespectingā Vegeta. I mean going by Toriyamaās manga aloneā¦
The best part is you can show these comparisons all day and they wonāt care because āthe fandom agreesā.
This same thread someone stated āKrillin is a better father than Goku. Let that sink in.ā
Like why should I let that sink in if I already know?
Because Krillin is an utter failure at everything, remember?
Like jeez, thereās literally nothing they can concede that he does right. And when they have to, they seek to undermine it.
Thatās literally not hyperbole, by the way.
Iām dead serious, whenever anyoneās surprised Krillin can even breathe, itāsĀ ābecause heās Krillinā.
Seeing the guy has dead Yamcha as his user picture, it seems this opinion isnāt really surprising
Oh, this has now gotten worse.
I couldnāt have asked for a better example of what I meant before.
Memes really do rule in this fandom. The series itself means nothing; the collective delusion of what the fandom WANTS to have happened in it supersedes all else to such an over-the-top degree that itās beyond parody.
Weāve reached the point where DBZ Abridged is more canon in those peopleās minds
Oh, thereās no getting around that at this point.
DBZ Abridged is objectively cancerous to this series and its characters. It wasnāt intended to be but itās become just that.
Mostly because a huge chunk of the fandom is too stupid to have discernment and the folks outside it think the series genuinely parodies things only in the show & adds nothing.
I have that feeling that people are already going to be demanding the Abridged version of Super. They will be chanting āthe anime is awful, but the Abridged version is THE definitive version.ā All because of jokes and memes to keep characters consistent with how they think the characters are instead of how they actually are.
They were humans to start. Converted to cyborgs and called androids due to wonky translations.
But they were awoken when Trunks was an infant and looked like teenagers (as we see in the primary timeline) and Trunks, having traveled 20 years into the past to warn Goku about them, he describes them as young teenagers and warns to not be deceived by their youthful appearances bc they are killers. Meaning, after 20 years of activity, while Trunks is fighting them in the future, they are still physically teenagers and that is how he -a teenager himself- describes them.
Meaning they do not age.
Meaning they are teenagers.
Emotionally they might age.
Intellectually they might age.
Physically is canon that they do not.
In History of Trunks, tho non-canon, 18 is angered when Trunks cuts her hair bc āthat doesnāt grow back, you punkā implying they donāt physically change at all. But that special isnāt canon, and if 18 can carry a child in her womb, Iām going to assume she can grow hair.
But whatever process that made her a cyborg, interferes with her ability to age.
Thatās why I find KrillinX18 gross. Not only is it just a random crack ship that comes out of no where (develop a crush on the woman who literally just tried to murder you and your friends on the side of the highway bc she kissed you on the cheek? Ok?) but itās a pairing of what essentially is a grown man with his sex-bot GF.
I find that icky.
Finally someone who shares the same opinion as I do about Krillin/18
Hi there. Iām here to explain to you why, canonically, none of this is a valid complaint.
1. The Androids are described asĀ āyoungā. Thatās it. If theyāre teens, theyāre in their late teens. So idk where this idea to depict them asĀ āyoung teensā comes from, as though theyāre 15 years of age.
2. You admit that, in the first place, your basis for this idea is non-canon. Youāre sourcing a TV special as your reason for claiming the Androids never age, or regrow hair, or etc. On top of that, theĀ āthat doesnāt grow backā line was dub only. But FURTHER than thisā¦
2. The Androids do canonically age. Certainly mentally, maturity-wise. But also physically.
āBy the way, though they donāt need to eat, they do need to hydrate. Also, their cells deteriorate slowly, so they age slowly too.
ā – Akira Toriyama,Ā Q&AĀ Section,Ā Dragon Ball Full Color: Artificial Humans & Cell Arc Volume #06 (02 May 2014)
17 and 18 do, in fact, age. They just do so more slowly, at least physically. So thatās moot.
But to further go in a bit here: Krillin and 18ā²s relationship does not, in fact, come out ofĀ ānowhereā. Nor is it aĀ ācrack shipā if it is, in fact, canon. But Iām going to show you why itās not.
Their relationship is actually seeded better than most any in this series, and hinted at throughout the entire arc. Yes, Krillin is infatuated with her because of a kiss. But he also notices something Kami himself noted; namely, they never actually attacked or killed anyone. They deliberately spared them all, even Vegeta, despite him picking the fight with them. In fact, they didnāt even want a fight at all; the sole reason they were even planning to help 16 with his mission to kill Goku was just to get it over with so the three of them could get on with their lives and do whatever they wanted.
But the thing is, Krillin doesnāt want to just help her. He actively seeks to help both 16ā¦
ā¦and 17 too.
And why does he do that again?
So to reiterate: Yes, heās infatuated with her. But he did all this for her without expecting a single thing to come of it. He was sure that someone like her had to have a boyfriend, that the guy she was with was probably it, and he accepted the probability there couldnāt ever be anything between them. Hell, he made the wish there without even knowing she was around.
This, however, does have an affect on her, knowing that he was willing to help them like that without expecting any sort of compensation or gratitude for it. And she is the one who seeks himĀ out, and they become friends, until his kind-hearted and straightforward, honest nature stole her heart, as explained by Toriyama himself.
How did Kuririn and No. 18 end up getting married? āThere was a lot that happened during those seven years. For No. 18, Kuririn was a type of person sheād never met before: earnest and straightforward. Little by little, she was drawn in by that. In my mind, their love story is pretty well-establishedā¦ ā -Akira Toriyama,Ā āAkira Toriyama Brings You: Secret Stories of the Dragon Ball Charactersā, Daizenshuu Vol. 7 (1995)
So no, their relationship does notĀ ācome out of nowhereā, itās not a crack ship, and it is, in fact, a healthy, loving, realistic relationship.Ā
With not even a teensy trace of āickyā.
OH YEAH Thereās also thatĀ āOfficial Age Chartā that actually says 18 and 17 are anywhere from 1 to 6 years OLDER than Krillin, soā¦ make of that what you will.
Yeeeah because, you know, itās not like literally everyone else there were ants to him or anything.
FFS Cell SPAWNED creatures as strong as Vegeta without losing any strength, and you wanna act like they all could have just teamed up on Cell? Nobody was strong enough to do a dang thing to him at that point BUT Gohan. Cell was given a Senzu bean for the explicit purpose of psyching him out and getting Gohan to dig deep.
And again, GOHAN WAS LITERALLY THE ONLY ONE WHO STOOD A CHANCE TO BEAT CELL. THIS IS NOT AN AMBIGUOUS THING, ITāS OBSERVABLE, STATED FACT.
Shoot, ALL of that was explicitly stated. The entire POINT of this arc was for it to be a horrible situation with no easy way out. If there was, THEN THIS COMPLAINT MIGHT HOLD WATER, BUT IT DOESNāT.
God, how the hell THICK are your skulls? Iām done playing nice about this, itās right there in print, learn to read you freakin memelords.
YES. And can we just talk about the fact how Goku looks in this panel:
This ia not the face of a bad father enjoying or smiling at his son being the only hope and chance. Goku isn’t taking any pleasure in Gohan’s fight with Cell. This is why I hate the anime potrayal of this scene. In the anime it just has Goku smiling throughout the whole thing, but in the manga this just isn’t the case at all.
You wanna know how you know character memes are often taken more seriously than the actual series in this fandom?
There are people who literally think Goku killed himself intentionally vs Cell.
There are people who legitimately think Vegeta was a good guy and great parent since Trunks was born.
There are people who think Goku has no technique and cannot strategize on the battlefield and relies solely on brute force to win.
There are people who not only think Krillin is weaker than Roshi and Yamcha, or even only as strong as Mr. Satan, but they actually think Krillin knowing the Kamehameha in Super is either an asspull or the first time he ever learned to use it.
There are people who still think Vegeta never wanted to be bad, and that Vegetaās plan to kill Freeza was about saving the galaxy from his tyrannical reign.
There are still people who think Yamcha was an abusive boyfriend while ignoring Young Bulmaās pattern of technicallyĀ āabusiveā behavior toward him & her friends.
There are still people who think Piccolo raised Gohan (and even Goten), even doing so while Goku was still around, despite Piccolo only having been alone with Gohan for six months and not seeing him too often after Cell.
There are still people who think 18 wasĀ ātrappedā into a relationship because she was guilt tripped by KrillinĀ āsaving herā.
There are still people who think Gohan wanted to be a warrior but Chi-Chi stopped him from becoming one & was an abusive parent.
I could go on but sweet Jesus, itās bad. And when you show them things from the series itself, they reject it and say theyĀ ādonāt agreeā, orĀ āthatās not the version I grew up with so it doesnāt countā or other such nonsense.
Itās freakinā nutso.
These may not come up as often but I sure as hell see them SO (strap in babes this is a doozy).
If these donāt say āI think one or two mangled character traits are accurate portrayals of these fleshed out individualsā I donāt know what does:
There are people who think that Goku intentionally held back against Cell so Gohan would have to fight (fucking why, God only knows, ah yes Son Goku always at it for the lolz).
Following that, there are people who genuinely believe Goku was really happy that Gohan had to get his ass kicked by Cell (because they keep confusing Goku saying āGohan is our only hopeā with him saying āGohan is our only hope and Iām fucking PUMPED about it!ā. And I mean, they think he was freaking ecstatic about it, like watching his preteen son get beat down was the highlight of his day. Itās really weird.
There are fuckers people that believe that āBattle-Crazy Gokuā shit in general, the idea that a majority, if not all of the fights in Z are because Goku sought them out/purposely escalated the situation in some way. Of course that couldnāt be farther from the truth, 9/10 of the major conflicts are villains seeking revenge for him stopping their evil deeds (if not Goku being totally unrelated to the initial conflict entirely). Hell, one entire arc is because of one dude! I canāt believe Iām saying that Son Goku is a literal sufferer of Victim Blaming, but here we are.
Following that, there are people who blame both Friezaās survival on Namek and his attempt to attack Earth on Goku, because heĀ āspared himā (wrong, he tried to spare him. And then F went backstabby and Goku blew him up. When will these people start fact checking the answer is never!).
There are people who think that Goku was happy to stay dead, for a shit ton of dumb reasons. This normally comes about when people misinterpret the scene at the Lookout right after he dies w/ Cell. He said something along the lines of āDonāt worry about me [staying in Otherworld], thereās lots of strong fighters here!ā, and douchenozzles with zero perception took it as him literally saying that he was happy to leave everyone and putz around fighting- y’know, instead of what it actually was: him comforting his soon to be grieving friends and familyĀ (including his child who is quite clearly blaming himself for his dadās death) by letting them know heād be okayĀ (this one always bothered me the most tbh, donāt sully his sacrifice and compassion you absolute FUCKS).
There are people who still think 18 doesnāt love Krillin/ is āusing himā (for WHAT)
There are, apparently, people who believe Goku is somehow forcing Chi Chi to be with him/ be faithful after he dies. Yes, ultra-traditional Chi Chi is being forced to not date after her husband dies. Forced by her DEAD HUSBAND from beyond the grave. Right.Ā
(I only saw this one in detail once, and vaguely a few other times, but it was so wild that I have to mention it)
And yeah, there are people who honestly think Yamcha was the worst offender in their tumultuous relationship and not Bulma, who does some really fucked up shit you guys, come on nowĀ (I wrote a bit about it in my Yeah, no, Yamcha didnāt fucking cheatĀ reblog, TL;DR Teen/Verging on Young Adult Bulma was an absolute menace)
Ā And also YEAH, there are people that actually think Vegeta gave a shit about Trunks pre-Buu, even thoughĀ
Trunks had been able to go SS for God knows how long before Veggie even found outĀ
The ānever hugā thingĀ
The āproud, battle seasoned warrior punches an 8yo in the face because heās startledā thing
TheĀ ādown with him dying more than onceā thing
My weakass speculations as to how often Trunks and Veggie were even in the same room based on the aforementioned Trunks goes SS scene (spoiler: not often)
And of course: There are people who still, to this day, hold the belief that DBZA, the parody, ātells the story betterāā¦ than the actual story.Ā
I donāt even know how to end this post other thanĀ āI hate this goddamn fanbaseā
Ah, theĀ āGoku could have beaten Cellā bit? Thatās thanks to the Other world Tournament filler. He was evenly matched with Pikkon, who essentially one-shotted Cell AND Freeza AND the Ginyu Force all at once, ergo Goku being able to match him MUST mean he could have easily beaten Cell.
Itās one of the main things I point out when people claim Filler never changed or affected anything in the series or how people view these characters.
On that Goku holding back against Cell thing, didnāt Goku HIMSELF say that he was going all out, or was that a dub only mis-translation?
Goku both explicitly says he was trying his hardest and that he knew that Gohan had gotten so much stronger during their time in the ROSAT it looked to him like they were taking it easy.
And Cell was still a bit stronger than Gohan at this point. Hence why Goku knew Gohan finally pushing past the limits of a Super Saiyan was literally their only hope.
š„ There is beauty in destructionš„ 