One thing I think people so often overlook with Krillin is what exactly he is to this series and WHY exactly he may be more timid than his counterparts.
Krillin is the normalcy among these characters. This is a world of superpowers, a world where people see a giant dragon appear in the sky and assume it must just be another Capsule Corp experiment, a world where people hear voices from the sky and think itās a prank, where entire fully-furnished houses can fit inside your pocket.Nobody really bats an eye at any of this stuff.Ā
You look at the guys with these weird powers and they also take things as they come for the most part, unphased, just figuringĀ āoh boy here comes a thing againā and thatās that.
Except this guy.
This guy was the everyman. This guy was the one to take the readerās perspective of things and point out just how truly, weirdly insane things could get at times. This guy actually experienced fear, dread, feelings of inadequacy. This guy actually worried about his family when he was out on the battlefield as opposed to being completely swept up in the fight.
But why, pray tell, was he so much more susceptible to these emotions?
Well, a lot of it would have to do with the fact that he was a victim of abuse as a child.
Krillin, as a small boy, was alone. No parents, no family to speak of, he found himself raised at Orin Temple. While there, he was subjected to abuse from the other inhabitants, many of them grown men, who would constantly mock and beat up on him, mocking both his size and strange appearance. It left such a mark on him that he began physically trembling again just upon seeing them. When he spoke in front of them, it was quiet, almost indiscernible.
Now itās important to realize that, up until this point, thatās the literal opposite of how Krillin had been portrayed. He was cocky, sarcastic. He wasnāt afraid to try to roast people. He seemed very sure of himself most of the time. And then we learn here that it was all a front, that he actually had absolutely no confidence in himself, a trait literally beaten into him over the years.
On top of this, a few years later, while still a boyā¦ he was killed. More specifically, killed by this monster here.
Trying to fight back had been futile. Despite his best effort, Krillin found himself dead at the hands of one of Piccoloās demon children, and all because heād opted to go get Gokuās stuff so his only real friend didnāt have to stop celebrating his match. That alone would be traumatic in and of itself, but take into consideration what Kami said later.
The souls of those killed by demons cannot rest, they cannot know peace. Theyāre doomed to drift in space, suffering the entire time. Krillin was killed by one such demon. This means he didnāt appear at the check-in station, never got to experience the other world. During the time it took to finally defeat Piccolo and restore the Dragon Balls to wish him back, the only thing Krillin experienced was pain and suffering.
Now call me crazy, butā¦ might the above not warrant an aversion to death? If everyone else got to experience what the afterlife was, yet all youād known was a restless, unending grief and pain, might you be a bit more likely to fear facing that again? Might you be more likely to doubt yourself and your abilities when people would literally beat this idea into your head?
(Side note: This is literally how half the Western fandom treats him. No joke.)
I just think a lot of Krillinās background is overlooked and not taken into consideration when people try to analyze why he is the way he is.
Scratch that, I think you guys need to hear his voice in this exchange. Itās almost shocking considering his depiction up to this point.
Goodness gracious me, Goku making sure Gohanās safe before fighting and showing concern for his sonās well-being?!
I was told this was something heād never do!
But I feel like this was stuck in the game intentionally to show some kind of character growth because we all know Goku has always had issues thinking of others when he decides he wants to fight someone.Ā
Not necessarily, no.
Even when completely enraged he took the time to tell Gohan to take Piccolo and get somewhere safe before it overtook him completely. And when they came back to face Freeza after his return, Goku moved him and Piccoloās body out of harmās way before fighting.
he is the kind of person that rathers get hurt before watching his friends get hurt, this has always been since he was a kid.
Damn, these are solid points all around! Toriyama should probably read itĀ šĀ
(AAAAAAYYYYY)
Iāve never really thought Goku didnāt love his son, just that in alot of instances his whole family (Gohan included) came second in alot of things. Heās valued training and getting stronger over alot of things, going so far as too staying dead after the Cell saga so he could keep training and leaving his wife (who was pregnant) to raise their kids alone.
He made Gohan fight Cell when Gohan was more of a scholar. He COULD fight and had a strong sense of justice, but until he got pushed emotionally he was absolutely pummeled.
During the Buu saga after managing to actually get their kids and Piccolo out of Buu Goku chose Hercule and Supreme Kai to save, leaving the unconscious children and his son to die in the Earthās explosion. Even Vegeta gets pissed at him. (Yes, in the end itās Hercule that saves the day but really? No tears? Nothing deep or emotional from Goku? )
The thing about Goku is heās dumb. Yesā¦.DBS hasā¦ exaggerated that a but more but he is. He is simple because he never had schooling. For fucks sake he wondered if Bulma was injured cause she didnāt have a penis. He didnāt even know what marriage was. He is a very selfish individual who fights because he wants to and believes that others feel the same way mostly cause, as I see it from how heās been shown to us through his entire presence through the dragon Ball series, thatās how he was raised. He didnāt know anything but training and sparring and thatās the world he grew up in.
Itās worked for him, so why change? Surely his own kids feel the same way? He loves them but honestly it feels like he subconsciously adopted the Saiyan method of raising a kid.
Donāt do it yourself. Let them get stronger and fight their own battles.
Goku decided to stay dead after the Cell Games because he felt it was his fault that so many bad guys appeared on Earth. And he did have a point – the saiyans, Frieza, the androids, and Cell. Getting to fight warriors in Otherworld was just a plus and probably something he said so his loved ones wouldn’t worry about him. He would have plenty to do. Besides, it’s not like he knew Chi Chi was pregnant at the time. He he had no clue whatsoever.
As for Gohan fighting Cell. Gohan was literally the ONLY one who could defeat Cell. Goku knows full well that his son wants to be a scholar and used that to encourage him. That way after the battle was over, his son could have a future and live to do what he wants.
And it’s not like Goku was thrilled and happy to see his son get thrashed. This is why I hate the anime potrayal of this fight – it shows Goku smiling throughout the whole thing, but in the manga this just really isn’tthe case. He was clearly worried.
Gohan had to be pushed beyond his limit and to anger, otherwise he wouldn’t have fought back.
And it’s not like Cell would just be okay and call of the Cell Games. He had every intention to kill everyone and destroy Earth if he wasn’t stopped. Again, Gohan was the only hope.
As for Kid Buu. Goku had every intention to use IT to save everyone else after he saved Hercule and Dende, but there wasn’t enough time. And idk why you say Goku showed no emotion. He was visiblyupset.
Finally, once again, Goku knows full well that Gohan wants to be a scholar, but I don’t exactly blame him if he may have thought otherwise because look at Gohan’s behavior throughout the series – he came back out of his own free will, after Goku sent him and Krillin away, to fight Vegeta. He wanted to go to Planet Namek, and hewanted to train everytime against the androids. This is also true of Goten, that on some level, he enjoyed fighting when he was a kid. I mean, he and Trunks always rushed off to check out what was going on when they sensed great power levels; they always wanted to stay and watch the fights. Plus, as Gotenks, you can’t tell me they didn’t enjoy fighting. So, that is some pretty mixed messages right there. Gohan wants to be a scholar, but on the other hand, he can have fun fighting (e.g. He was impatient to wait his turn on Babidi’s ship)
As for Goku leaving the fate of the world’s hand onto the next generation. To be honest, although dangerous, that is actually realistic and healthy. His kids and his friends cannot depend on him all their lives. They have to become independant and be able to look after themselves. It may seem selfish and harsh, but this is the truth.
Goku won’t be around forever. He knows this. For all intents and purposes, Goku shouldn’t have lived again after Cell. Even the dragon balls have limits.
And let’s be real. In this series, bad guys will always pop up eventually. What will happen on the day Goku has passed away and won’t be able to come back and help? Eventually, he will stay dead, no exception, and no chance of returning to Earth. It will be permanent one day (just like in Mirai Trunks’ timeline).
Thus, it’s best everyone else be ready. Yes, it’s hard and such a heavy burden to carry, but I mean, that is why people like Krillin and Gohan go back to training so they will be strong to protect their loved ones. They do it because they want to. They want to be strong to protect that they hold precious. Again, they can’t expect Goku to be around forever. They can’t always count on him to save them (e.g. He was powerless against Cell, Beerus, etc).
Goku may seem like a simple character who is irresponsible and merely loves fighting, but that just isn’t the case. He is actually a really smart and complex character when you take off your meme goggles and really look at this series deeply and all the evidence in the manga.
You wanna know how you know character memes are often taken more seriously than the actual series in this fandom?
There are people who literally think Goku killed himself intentionally vs Cell.
There are people who legitimately think Vegeta was a good guy and great parent since Trunks was born.
There are people who think Goku has no technique and cannot strategize on the battlefield and relies solely on brute force to win.
There are people who not only think Krillin is weaker than Roshi and Yamcha, or even only as strong as Mr. Satan, but they actually think Krillin knowing the Kamehameha in Super is either an asspull or the first time he ever learned to use it.
There are people who still think Vegeta never wanted to be bad, and that Vegetaās plan to kill Freeza was about saving the galaxy from his tyrannical reign.
There are still people who think Yamcha was an abusive boyfriend while ignoring Young Bulmaās pattern of technicallyĀ āabusiveā behavior toward him & her friends.
There are still people who think Piccolo raised Gohan (and even Goten), even doing so while Goku was still around, despite Piccolo only having been alone with Gohan for six months and not seeing him too often after Cell.
There are still people who think 18 wasĀ ātrappedā into a relationship because she was guilt tripped by KrillinĀ āsaving herā.
There are still people who think Gohan wanted to be a warrior but Chi-Chi stopped him from becoming one & was an abusive parent.
I could go on but sweet Jesus, itās bad. And when you show them things from the series itself, they reject it and say theyĀ ādonāt agreeā, orĀ āthatās not the version I grew up with so it doesnāt countā or other such nonsense.
Itās freakinā nutso.
These may not come up as often but I sure as hell see them SO (strap in babes this is a doozy).
If these donāt say āI think one or two mangled character traits are accurate portrayals of these fleshed out individualsā I donāt know what does:
There are people who think that Goku intentionally held back against Cell so Gohan would have to fight (fucking why, God only knows, ah yes Son Goku always at it for the lolz).
Following that, there are people who genuinely believe Goku was really happy that Gohan had to get his ass kicked by Cell (because they keep confusing Goku saying āGohan is our only hopeā with him saying āGohan is our only hope and Iām fucking PUMPED about it!ā. And I mean, they think he was freaking ecstatic about it, like watching his preteen son get beat down was the highlight of his day. Itās really weird.
There are fuckers people that believe that āBattle-Crazy Gokuā shit in general, the idea that a majority, if not all of the fights in Z are because Goku sought them out/purposely escalated the situation in some way. Of course that couldnāt be farther from the truth, 9/10 of the major conflicts are villains seeking revenge for him stopping their evil deeds (if not Goku being totally unrelated to the initial conflict entirely). Hell, one entire arc is because of one dude! I canāt believe Iām saying that Son Goku is a literal sufferer of Victim Blaming, but here we are.
Following that, there are people who blame both Friezaās survival on Namek and his attempt to attack Earth on Goku, because heĀ āspared himā (wrong, he tried to spare him. And then F went backstabby and Goku blew him up. When will these people start fact checking the answer is never!).
There are people who think that Goku was happy to stay dead, for a shit ton of dumb reasons. This normally comes about when people misinterpret the scene at the Lookout right after he dies w/ Cell. He said something along the lines of āDonāt worry about me [staying in Otherworld], thereās lots of strong fighters here!ā, and douchenozzles with zero perception took it as him literally saying that he was happy to leave everyone and putz around fighting- y’know, instead of what it actually was: him comforting his soon to be grieving friends and familyĀ (including his child who is quite clearly blaming himself for his dadās death) by letting them know heād be okayĀ (this one always bothered me the most tbh, donāt sully his sacrifice and compassion you absolute FUCKS).
There are people who still think 18 doesnāt love Krillin/ is āusing himā (for WHAT)
There are, apparently, people who believe Goku is somehow forcing Chi Chi to be with him/ be faithful after he dies. Yes, ultra-traditional Chi Chi is being forced to not date after her husband dies. Forced by her DEAD HUSBAND from beyond the grave. Right.Ā
(I only saw this one in detail once, and vaguely a few other times, but it was so wild that I have to mention it)
And yeah, there are people who honestly think Yamcha was the worst offender in their tumultuous relationship and not Bulma, who does some really fucked up shit you guys, come on nowĀ (I wrote a bit about it in my Yeah, no, Yamcha didnāt fucking cheatĀ reblog, TL;DR Teen/Verging on Young Adult Bulma was an absolute menace)
Ā And also YEAH, there are people that actually think Vegeta gave a shit about Trunks pre-Buu, even thoughĀ
Trunks had been able to go SS for God knows how long before Veggie even found outĀ
The ānever hugā thingĀ
The āproud, battle seasoned warrior punches an 8yo in the face because heās startledā thing
TheĀ ādown with him dying more than onceā thing
My weakass speculations as to how often Trunks and Veggie were even in the same room based on the aforementioned Trunks goes SS scene (spoiler: not often)
And of course: There are people who still, to this day, hold the belief that DBZA, the parody, ātells the story betterāā¦ than the actual story.Ā
I donāt even know how to end this post other thanĀ āI hate this goddamn fanbaseā
Ah, theĀ āGoku could have beaten Cellā bit? Thatās thanks to the Other world Tournament filler. He was evenly matched with Pikkon, who essentially one-shotted Cell AND Freeza AND the Ginyu Force all at once, ergo Goku being able to match him MUST mean he could have easily beaten Cell.
Itās one of the main things I point out when people claim Filler never changed or affected anything in the series or how people view these characters.
On that Goku holding back against Cell thing, didnāt Goku HIMSELF say that he was going all out, or was that a dub only mis-translation?
Goku both explicitly says he was trying his hardest and that he knew that Gohan had gotten so much stronger during their time in the ROSAT it looked to him like they were taking it easy.
And Cell was still a bit stronger than Gohan at this point. Hence why Goku knew Gohan finally pushing past the limits of a Super Saiyan was literally their only hope.
personal hypothesis: Ed never fractures when heās withĀ Oswald because Oswald is accepting of both the light and dark parts of him. Therefore, he never feels the need to compartmentalize the deviant parts of himself into a separate persona.
I love this theory so much! I think a perfect moment to showcase this is when Ed hands Oswald his itineraries for the day in 3×06. One for his mayoral duties and the other his criminal ones. Ed felt so at ease and comfortable in that role and he was great at it! Plus, Ozzie gave him all the positive reinforcement he needed and wanted.
Ugh- Oswaldās going to rot in off-the-rack hell for the way he treats that little boy.Ā In all likelihood, Sofiaās going to join him there.Ā On the positive side: this is terrible to watch, but it is in keeping with what was said about Oswald becoming āmore depravedā, and Iām certainly happy to see that Sofiaās a complete monster.Ā Soā¦ good work on this characterizationā¦ Gotham writers?Ā It feels so weird to say that!
@rhavewellyarnbagĀ Ā Oswald is treating Martin not as a child, but as a small adult. Yes, he should know better. I wonder, though-if thatās how Oswald was treated, or if he had to act as adult at an inappropriately young age.
Why is Martin crying? Because Oswald has frightened him, or hurt his feelings; or, because heās already working for Sofia and knows heās going to betray Oswald?
Another thought: At the dinner, why did Pyg select Martin to use as a hostage, rather than any of the other children? Without inside information, how did he know that Martin was special to Oswald?
Sorry to butt in on your conversation, but your recent posts about Oswaldās relationship with Martin and the light it might shed on his relationship with Gertrud has just been fascinating to me, and I wanted to chime in here because this thought occurred to me as well. Like, Gertrud and Oswaldās relationship is weird on multiple levels, but one of them is the way it sort of collapses age? Is that the word I want? From the scenes we get of them in season 1 it seems like Oswald occupies several roles for his mother simultaneously. She obviously treats him like heās still a young child in several scenes (the bath, talking about bullies), but sheās also jealous of imaginary women when he disappears for days, treating him more like a lover or husband. And then we see him having to comfort and humor her several times, in a reversal of the parent-child dynamic. So yeah, I definitely get the sense that in some ways, Gertrud never wanted him to grow up, and in others, he was forced to grow up too early. (Related to that, I always wonder when he started having to work to support them both? Gertrud doesnāt seem well enough to have been consistently employed. Do you think he finished high school?)
(I hope Iām not coming off as excusing Oswaldās treatment of Martin, btw. Itās super gross, but also very intriguing as to what it says about his own childhood.)
was having a great discussion last night with @fluxāandāflow about Isabellaās abusive behaviour towards Ed with her forcing fake!Kristen and strangulation on/from him without his consent (albeit done out ofĀ āloveā and with intent to help, paralleling how Eddieās abuse of Kristen had the same intent, making it arguably a different flavour of abuse to, say, Tomās of Kristen, who just flat out wanted to control/own – which is the bottom line of what I was getting confused about I think flux, not trying to justify either one, just getting lost in the specific motivations! based on my feeling that the show may have been trying to imply that Izzyās abuse was somehowĀ āgoodā because of her intent, and the lack of immediately fatal and obviously psychologically damaging results!)
anyway, I thought of an additional question to ponder –
do you think Eddie himself (or Ozzie!) would have recognised/felt her behaviour as abuse/bad??
because I feel like Eddie, while scared AT THE TIME (though I still struggle to see him as scared OF her at any point) may well have come away from the experience with the opinion that her behaviour had been good/loving?
like, clearly he recognises (unwanted) physical harm like Tom forced on Kristen as abuse (we assume because of personal childhood experience of the same?), butā¦ considering he himself got rough with Kristen and believed it loving (and I donāt think weāve seen anything to suggest heās ever questioned his behaviour with her?), and is chill with psychologically manipulating others for their own benefit without their consent (eg. Oswald and the trick with the little girl and arranging a clean election), I feel like he may well have not at any point actually seen or felt anythingĀ āwrongā with Izzyās behaviour?Ā
(and presumably OzzieĀ āshe fought for himā and āI wonāt let you leave!ā Cobblepot would have just seen it as fair tactics?? :p)
@littlehollyleafĀ To be honest, although I can see it was hamfisted to an extent, and could prompt a reading of abuse – I donāt think they intended it that way.
I think they meant to show āIsabella understands Ed, can meet him āon his levelā, is willing to endanger herself for him, and helped him to confront his demons and find peaceā – which then gave his subsequent loss pathos.
Gotham can sometimes be a little tone-deaf (i.e utterly lazy and thoughtless) with how it does things. Off the top of my head, Alfred slapping Selina, Lee slapping an unconscious Babs, Jim saying he only stopped Ogre to save Lee.
In each respective instance, I think they wanted to show āAlfred is furious and grieving and doesnāt take prisonersā, āLee is a bad ass who fights for her manā, and āJim really loves Leeā – but the unfortunate way they went about each just said āthis character is a complete jerkā.
@littlehollyleafĀ and @sunlitroomĀ I got a different take on that scene when I first viewed it. After re-watching, I can certainly see the point about how it was abusive. I donāt think Ed saw it that way-because he was happy afterwards and thought things were back on track with Isabella. I think Oswald would have seen it as Isabella pulling out the stops to get what she wanted.
However, I saw something a bit different. When Oswald visited her, she answered the door with a sweet, surprised expression. But behind Oswaldās back, she rolled her eyes and looked disgusted and put out. She didnāt yet know the purpose of Oswaldās visit. What made me look twice, was that she dropped the āsweet librarianā act and looked like a different person for a moment.
Moving on to the evening with Ed, letās look at what happened when Ed tried to leave.
She grabbed him and pushed him all the way across the room. If we accept that Ed really was trying to leave-how was she strong enough to drag a man all the way across a room against his will? And when she placed his hands on her throat, why wasnāt she at all afraid? Unless she knew that if he did try to choke her, sheād be strong enough to fight him off, unlike Kristen. Letās remember-Ed choked Kristen to death and she wasnāt strong enough to fight him off. Letās also think about Fake Bruceās unusual strength.
One more detail-Iāve looked carefully at all the scenes which feature Isabellaās apartment. Thereās lots of clutter: collectables, dried flowers, framed artwork, lots of āstuffā. So, where are the personal photographs? Family photos? Photos of friends? Theyāre conspicuously missing from the clutter (unlike the clutter at Gertrudeās apartment, or the study at Wayne Manor.)
Yes, I know-Gotham probably wonāt do anything else with Isabella But until the seasonās over, Iāll still be sitting here with my conspiracy theories.
Trust me from experience she was being abusive and Ed comes from a home of being treated the way Isabella treated him. The show meant for that to be dark, not cathartic
@rose-for-dead-aliceĀ Even if Edās backstory (which theyāve given us none of) is different from the abusive childhood he had in the comics, what happened in real time between him and Isabella is creepy, regardless.
Letās imagine this: suppose the gender roles were reversed. Suppose a man grabbed a woman who was trying to leave, dragged her back into a room, and slapped her across the face. Then proceeded to convince her to have sex with him. That puts things in a different light. I think thereās a double standard, that when men are treated in an abusive manner, we often donāt call it out in the same way we would if the character was female.
I donāt think Ed saw it as abuse, but yes; her behavior was abusive. What the writers intended, I donāt know.
I HATE how Ed lied to Isabella and to himself when he insisted killing his ex was an accident.
Yes, killing her was an accident, ok.
BUT WAS AN ACCIDENT ALSO CUT HER INTO PIECES, BURY THEM IN THE WOODS WHILE CELEBRATING ALL OF IT WITH A GLASS OF WINE?
Thank you for bringing this up. Ed had notĀ been honest about all of that and what killing means to him. That was weird behavior. Like, really freaky behavior to bury her in the woods and then celebrate it. Most murders are committed out of necessity in gotham and the bodyās are dispatched without flairā¦what Ed did was really chilling especially since people do this in real lifeā¦
it kind of would take a person that fed his step siblings to his stem mother to be understanding of that behaviorā¦ Not a librarianā¦Ā
@rose-for-dead-aliceĀ said: āYāknow what fascinates me when it comes to his mental state. He
went from it being an accident, to enjoying the game and even telling
himself and later on Oswald that basically she was a gift to him to lead
him on a new path of his life. Then later on he seems whatever about it
and then later on he seems to go back to considering it a horrible
accident almost like it wasnāt murder, like he had nothing to do with
it.Itās interesting.
Just like when he thought Butch killed
Isabella he was just so gleeful about murdering him, like no big deal.
Then he found out it was actually Os who did it and he canāt even fantasy kill him, he has to take time and just mentally destroy him but
not kill him.
His feelings towards these chicks are very complicated.ā
ALL of this. No, cutting her up so sheād fit in a box and having a picnic with said box was not an accident! Letās also donāt forget how Bad Ed put Kristenās hand in a vending machine, either, to play games with Good Ed, and the two Eds both live in the same brain. No librarian could ever understand this! Ed is a killer who keeps souvenirs; murderers do that when they enjoy the act of killing so much, they want to re-live the murders over and over.
Oswald is the one who truly accepts Ed.
And yes, a thousand times yes-Ed flip flops about Kristen; he insisted to Oswald (when he called Oswald about Kristenās glasses) that he really truly loved Kristen. Remember how angry he was when he asserted that he loved her? Kinda like how angry he gets when someone calls Isabella Isabelle. But yes, he also talked about how Kristenās death was a gift.
Iāve never bought that Kristenās death was an accident, but āpart of Edā seems convinced thatās what happened.
Yeah. Even though he gave that whole speech to Jim about embracing who he is, heās still lying to himself.
Itās kind of a parallel with what happened to Oswald when he got out of Arkham. Obviously Edward hasnāt been trying to be a good guy, but he has been trying to recapture some of his old life when he was more innocent (i.e. revisiting the GCPD, pursuing Isabella). And, like with Oswald, someone he trusted killed someone he cared about.
@danniruthvanĀ Wow, thatās right-Oswaldās stepmother, who he trusted, killed his dad; thatās a parallel to Oswald killing Isabella, from Edās point of view.
š„ There is beauty in destructionš„ 